Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 9 - Old Town Road

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lax

cloutimus maximus
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Hey Kebab mlml we are testing Spectrier



Spectrier has been an extremely restrictive presence for teambuilding due to its offensive prowess, set up opportunity and incredibly high speed. The horse boasts an incredible base 145 Special Attack, the third highest out of any Pokémon allowed in OU following Xuriktree and Blacephalon. However, despite its stronger predecessors, Spectrier is the only one of these Pokémon considered highly viable in OU due to its typing and exceptional base 130 speed. This allows it to outspeed the vast majority of non-Scarfed and unboosted Pokémon, while faster Pokémon like Zeroara and Dragapult struggle to deal with it defensively. The horse also has access to its signature ability Grim Neigh, which grants it a Special Attack boost after KOing a Pokémon. This allows for snowball potential, enabling Spectrier to gain traction quickly. With that being said, Spectrier is not without flaws. Spectrier does have a major downside in its incredibly shallow attacking coverage. However, the combination of its exceptional stats and typing makes it incredibly difficult to play around and forces teams to run Pokémon that would not be as common if not for the horse.

Spectrier's primary set revolves around setting up for itself and sweeping. The main moves include Substitute and a boosting move in Calm Mind or Nasty Plot. The third move is Shadow Ball, a solid 80 base power STAB move, or Hex, a 65 base power STAB move that doubles if the target has any status. Whether or not Spectrier uses Hex is reliant upon its final move. For it's final moveslot, Spectrier typically chooses between Will-o-wisp and a coverage move that would allow it to hit Normal types. A second attacking move would usually be Dark Pulse, but people have used Hyper Beam as well to get important KO's on Hydreigon. The goal of this set is to set up on a Pokémon that is threatened out or cannot touch Spectrier. This can be achieved through Will-o-wisp onto Pokémon such as Mandibuzz and Ferrothorn that may struggle to break a Substitute after being burned. Generation 8's removal of the move Pursuit allows the horse to freely spam status or attacking moves without risk of being punished. Spectrier then boosts its stats, and a boosted Spectrier behind Substitute is incredibly dangerous in most situations. The Will-o-wisp set can be walled by Normal types, but what makes Spectrier truly annoying and difficult to prepare for is that your team might not be prepared for the specific set your opponent brings. For example, you can have Shadow Ball Blissey as your Spectrier counter, but that set would lose to Calm Mind Dark Pulse due to failing to break its sub. You could also use the simple Teleport Blissey into a Pokémon that threatens Spectrier out tactic, but with Pheromosa's departure, it is not easy to pivot between U-turn and Teleport around Spectrier. Similarily, Hyper Beam can effectively KO many common checks such as Hydreigon and Mandibuzz after minimal chip damage on them. Due to this, Spectrier is incredibly restrictive in the sense that it can pick and choose its counters. It should be mentioned that the other faster Pokémon in the tier also struggle vs Calm Mind Spectrier, with Dragapult having to trade its life for a Thunder Wave or damage and Zeroara losing most of its HP breaking Substitute with a Physical move. Before the rise of Substitute Spectrier, the most commonly spammed set was Choice Specs. No one can deny how strong Choice Specs Spectrier is in the metagame, oftentimes forcing people to use Hydreigon and Normal types. Furthermore, if paired with status spreading Pokémon, Spectrier having an instant Choice Spec boosted Hex was an insane threat to deal with, even being able to put a major dent in its most common counter, Hydreigon. Choice Specs was used for raw breaking, but its popularity has certainly decreased since people discovered how good boosting was.

The issues listed above encompass the main reason why Spectrier can be seen as too much for the OU tier. One may argue that it actually struggles with breaking vs teams with Hydreigon or Normal types, but it still has a move pool capable enough to break either. Despite this, the fact that every balanced or bulkier team is required to use a bulky Dark type or a Normal type speaks to volumes about Spectrier's presence in the tier. It is comparable to the past Dracovish, which either dented a hole in any team or was walled by Seismitoad. Additionally, a key similarity between the two is that the dapper fish's partners can set it up easily through luring Seismitoad or chipping the toad endlessly. What one really has to consider about Spectrier is the fact that it is a six versus six team game. Sets ranging from more extreme moves such as Focus Punch Nidoking to common threats such as Heatran's combination of Magma Storm and moves like Taunt and Toxic support Spectrier easily. There is infinite support for the horse through surprise breaking and status spam, all to set up the horses in the back.

However, Spectrier is clearly not a flawless Pokémon. While its typing provides solid offensive presence, only being resisted by Dark types and not being able to touch Normal types, but it also makes Spectrier weak to the all too common move Knock Off. Many Pokémon in OU run Knock Off, such as Clefable, Landorus-Therian and Toxapex. If Spectrier ever receives a flat Knock Off, its long-term presence and effectiveness decreases exponentially. Having Leftovers removed limits its boosting ability and also forces chip on it through hazards, status, and weather. Additionally, the prominent boosting sets start off weaker due to EV's being invested in bulk for more reliable set up. If this is called out early, Spectrier could struggle to gain its footing and prepare a sweep. Additionally, while it has incredible offensive stats, Spectrier is relatively frail with a base defense of 60. This can be voided by using Will-o-wisp and investing into HP and defensive stats, allowing it to maintain its Substitute. However, it also means that Spectrier can practically never switch into any moves. As mentioned numerous times, it also has common answers such as Blissey and Hydreigon, which can be used to counter other prominent threats in the metagame. Blissey is a complete Special sponge, easily switching into the strongest attacks from Pokémon such as Magearna. Hydreigon is another frequently used Pokémon, often used to counter a major metagame threat in Heatran. These Pokémon also have their own way of dealing with the horse with Shadow Ball and Snarl on Blissey and Hydreigon respectively. However, similar to how Spectrier is not flawless, these "counters" are not as well, and can be annoyed and dealt with through Spectrier's teammates. The combination of its restrictiveness and sweeping potential stated previously is the reason the OU council has decided Spectrier is worthy of a suspect test.


  • ***THIS IS NEW TO SS OU SUSPECTS*** Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430

  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUTS. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUTS l4x.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
  • The aspect being tested, Spectrier, will be allowed on the ladder.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
  • The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until February 5th at 11:59 pm (GMT-5), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:


  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes retesting Spectrier vs other potential suspects;
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • You are required to read this thread before posting.
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
  • Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
    • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
    • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
    • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderater.
    • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
    • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leaders, TDK and suapah, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.
Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Moderation team.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering! Kebab mlml TonyFlygon
 
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DerpySuX

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I have really mixed feelings about Spectrier honestly. She’s one of my absolute favorite Pokémon in the game and I love her offenses. However, I can’t deny that she can be quite restricting in team building, especially in a no Dynamax format.

Stuff like chansey and blissey do well against her but it’s not reasonable to force everything to run one of her few checks just to not get completely swept by a specs or plot set.


Scarfed Spectrier is a potent revenge killer and with grim neigh she can double as a sweeper by killing a weakened Pokémon and using the boosts to break through everything with sheer power.

I honestly don’t know what my opinion is on Spectrier. On one hand, I totally get why people think she’s overwhelming. Maybe it’s just bias because I love her so much, but I think she’s usually quite manageable. This is a hard decision for me
 

shadowpea

everyone is lonely sometimes
is a Tiering Contributor
Ban this thing. It's way too restricting for the tier, especially on the teambuilder. If you have your check it isn't too overly hard to outplay, but you need to have a select few sets in order to not instantly die.

Also best thread title in the year BY FAR. Congrats to council! :puff:

E: Yo Smogon your emoji thingie is incredible. Wigglytuff can actually check Spectrier! :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff:
Right... calcs
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Mud Shot vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Wigglytuff: 154-182 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Wigglytuff: 112-132 (23.1 - 27.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. Wigglytuff: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

:puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff:
 
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ironwater

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Hi there, I’m here to share my thoughts on Spectrier and explain why in my opinion it deserves to be banned.


spectrier.gif



Spectrier surely is an interesting case. On the one hand it has amazing offensive stats, an extremely dangerous ability that allows him to easily snowball teams and a great support movepool with thinks like Taunt, Sub, Will-o-wisp, Disable. On the other hand, its offensive movepool is almost non-existent. Except its ghost stab, its only viable options are Mud shot (a very bad move) and Dark pulse (which doesn’t improve much your coverage).

Thus, one may think that running a Normal or Dark defensive mon should be enough to deal with it. But things are not that simple. Unlike a Regieleki that gets completely walled by any ground type, Spectrier is sometimes able to brute force through its main counters which are already very limited and must run very specific sets and/or spreads to win the 1v1.

Before pointing out the list of its most relevant counters, let’s have a look at Spectrier main sets. It has three which are Specs, Scarf and Sub Nasty plot.

As Spectrier offensive options are really limited, choiced sets often run the same moves:

spectrier.gif

Spectrier @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Ball
- Hex
- Mud Shot / Dark Pulse / Haze

Basically, the scarfed one gives a lot of speed control while hitting hard enough, threatening a lot of offensive mons while the specs version is an amazing wall breaker that still has a very good speed tier.

For a non choiced set, they are way more options as it has a lot of great status moves:

spectrier.gif

Spectrier @ Leftovers
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 112 HP / 20 Def / 172 SpA / 20 SpD / 184 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Hex / Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind / Nasty plot
- Will-O-Wisp / Taunt / Disable


The goal of this kind of sets is mainly to play around Spectrier main counters as for example, Will-o-wisp helps against things like Mandibuzz and Tyranitar while Taunt and Calm mind can threaten things like Blissey.


Speaking of counters, let’s have a look at the main mons who can deal with Spectrier and see how well they handle it.

:blissey: Blissey is most of the time a good Spectrier check as it is immune to its ghost stab and has access to teleport in order to pivot out. Thus, as Spectrier doesn’t have trick, Blissey is solid check to the choiced versions. Things can get a bit more complicated against non-choiced Spectrier. Indeed, if it can’t touch Blissey, it can still try to pp stall him. The taunt version can prevent him from clicking teleport and freely set up on Blissey wasting its Seismic toss. Some Blissey are played with Shadow ball to counter this but Shadow Ball blissey may be losing against a Calm Mind Taunt Spectrier. Thus, even if most of the time Blissey will work as a Spectrier checks you’re still weak to some alternative sets.

:mandibuzz: Mandibuzz does pretty well against spectrier especially if you have some spe def invests. However, you don’t like to get burned with Mandi especially because after a burn you won’t be able to break Spectrier subs with Foul play and it will just mindlessly set up in front of you. So basically, Spectrier can beat Mandibuzz but at the cost to lose a move allowing him to beat Shadow ball Blissey.

:tyranitar: Ttar is bulkier on the special side then Mandi thanks to sand. However, as you’re only recovery move is Rest, you’re way less effective as a Spectrier check over time.

:hydreigon: Hydreigon is played with some spe def invests to deal with Spectrier and basically does the same thing than Mandi but with Dark pulse instead of Foul play which allow him to always break Spectrier’s sub and prevent him from set-up.

They are other non ou mons that can also somehow check Spectrier, sometimes less efficiently than the mons above. I’ll go over some of them but keep in mind that they are not that great in OU overall.

:porygon2: Porygon-2 has basically the same role as blissey but with Foul play to hit Spectrier. You still don’t like much to get burned and you cannot run Heavy-duty-boots so you may get weaken by hazards.

:zarude: Zarude is surprisingly good against Spectrier. You have enough bulk to hit its ghost moves pretty well, you can heal yourself from Will-o-wisp and unlike Mandy you will hit Spectrier hard enough to force him out.

:umbreon: Umbreon can be another Mandi alternative to check Spectrier. As you have Heal bell and more spe def (+ you can run Leftovers) you may be able to handle better the dark horse. However, Umbreon checks way less things than Mandi and even if it’s good against Spectrier, it doesn’t fit well in an OU team.


They may be some more mons, but the main idea I wanna point out here is that Spectrier counters are not that numerous and most of them don’t deal with all Spectrier sets or are not very viable in OU.

If Spectrier doesn’t sweep that often in OU matches, it still restrains a lot the teambuilding forcing some very specific mons and sets in each team. This is why I feel that it should be banned from OU. I don’t think it is as broken as things like Urshifu-s (or Magearna) so I’m eager to read other opinions that may change my mind.

If you made it this far, well thank you for reading my thoughts and I wish you good luck for reaching those reqs.
 

Zneon

uh oh
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Hi everyone, back with your monthly dose of suspect thoughts, this time being Spectrier. I'd been very transparent with my thoughts on Spectrier for a while now if you look at the metagame discussion thread, and overtime I feel Spectrier has become harder to handle in a since that it forces players in a very uncomfortable position in practice and strangles the teambuilder, to the point where I feel the metagame cannot progress the way in a healthy manner with Spectrier in the tier.

On paper, Spectrier looks very underwhelming, but considering how powerful of an offensive typing Ghost really is combined with its ludicrous Speed, Special attack and Grim Neigh, in practice it is a completely different story. Because of its insane positives, all it really needs is its Ghost STAB to put heavy pressure on the opponents team, it's pretty easy for Spectrier to do this because it forces so many switches, those 3 amazing qualities I listed are exactly why this is the case. Despite its shallow movepool, Spectrier's pool of counterplay is very limited, from the top of my head, Tyranitar, SpDef Hydreigon, Zarude, and Mandibuzz are the only Pokemon not considered niche that I can think of that can check Spectrier defensively, mostly SubCM Spectrier since that's its best set by far, and Tyranitar and Zarude are the only Pokemon from these 4 that can check it consistently, meaning that the there are is a whopping 2 Pokemon that checks it defensively that are viable options in the metagame. Obstagoon has also been getting a lot of using due to its ability to offensively counter Spectrier, which speaks to the impact that Spectrier has been having on the metagame.

However the biggest reason why I feel Spectrier should leave is the fact that it can bypass its answers, I'm talking about Hydreigon and Mandibuzz here. Spectrier is able to bypass these Pokemon depending on its moveset pretty reliably, especially Mandibuzz. I want to go over a tourgame not in SPL since almost people covered it already, but in Tundra Cup Finals game 1, which really shows how it can easily bypass its checks, so let's go.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-535656

So on turn 12, stareal brings in Spectrier on KJ Corp's Cinderace and is forced to switch into, which allows it to get a free Substitute on the next turn, and he brings in Mandibuzz. Now, you'd think that KJ will be able to check the Spectrier with his Mandibuzz, but nope, turn 14, Mandibuzz gets burned, and that's huge, because with 112 HP / 20 Def, Spectrier's substitute always lives a Foul Play, meaning that his Spectrier is free to set up a lot of Calm Minds, turn 16 he goes back to Mandbuzz after going for Volt Switch with Magearna and proceeds to get multiple crits, the funny thing is, if those crits did not happen then Spectrier would have easily won the 1v1 between it and the Mandibuzz, and considering that Mandibuzz is supposed to check it somewhat, it's pretty baffling so easily Spectrier can bypass these so-called checks.

A similar thing occurs in turn 30, but its less from Spectrier itself and more from paralysis support, and support like frees a moveslot for Spectrier for something like Dark Pulse for Blissey for example. With just 1 turn of full paralysis, stareal's Mandibuzz almost lost against Spectrier, and if KJ's Spectrier got the roll to kill the Mandibuzz or the Mandibuzz got full para'd when it was at 1%, that would have been the whole game. I think this really goes to show how stupid Spectrier really can be.

So in conclusion, Spectrier is a very restrictive presence in OU that, in my eyes, is way too much for the metagame to handle. Its pool of offensive and defensive answers are very poor and some of its already small pool of checks can get bypassed depending on the Spectrier moveset. Thus, I feel it should be banned, and I will vote ban on it when I hopefully stop sucking at Pokemon and get reqs.

Hope you enjoyed this post, and thanks for reading!
 
Had a LOT of fun on OU ladder with Emo Galarian Rapidash, one of my absolute favorites to use. But if I have the time to get reqs (probably not bc of school + other activities), I would vote ban.

In the limited amount of time I have playing OU, this pony changed teambuilding since its release. Initially, there were more pressing issues, starting with Genesect, Naganadel, and Landorus-I. Those 3 were all far more threatening than Spectrier and were dealt with. During that time, I mostly used Scarf Spectrier as a way to revenge kill all 3 of those, being immune to Extreme Speed from Genesect and outspeeding +1 Naganadel was a huge blessing for a scarfer + the ability to snowball came in clutch.

After those 3 were banned, there was Zygarde, Kyurem-B, and Pheromosa, who were the problem mons in the tier. Spectrier LOVED having Zygarde as a partner, as the snake was easily able to spread paralysis via Glare, easily allowing Spectrier to break past even Mandibuzz (Standard OU Spreads: +2 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 196-231 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after burn damage) without needing to status it itself. But Spectrier remained bearable due to Urshifu-S' omnipresence in the tier, providing a soft check for most teams. Personally, I would often pair Urshifu-S with a Specially Defensive Mandibuzz as my Defogger in order to check Spectrier more comfortably, even versus more offensively inclined setup variants (+2 252 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 204+ SpD Mandibuzz: 178-210 (42 - 49.6%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO after burn damage). I mostly stuck with Scarf Spectrier to lure and remove Pheromosa, as well as revenge killing boosted Kyurem-B's.

Now we reached present day SWSH OU, with no Urshifu-S around to soft check it and all of the more oppressing threats gone (besides Magearna which is an issue for a different suspect test and MAYBE Cinderace). Even though teams now have more room to check this emo horse, the loss of Urshifu-S as a commonly used soft check, alongside a slower metagame which allows setup variants to come in and set up with ease has made Spectrier much harder to deal with in teambuilding. Unlike Magearna, who is generally seen as a more pressing issue because of how easily it can setup and win, Spectrier forces you to consider it in teambuilding unless you want to be swept by it. Its soft checks are a lot less splashable compared to Magearna, with the loss of Urshifu-S. (Heatran is generally a very splashable check to most setup variants of Magearna lacking Focus Blast/Aura Sphere).

TLDR: I believe the departure of an extremely splashable check in Urshifu-S is what really pushed Spectrier over the edge, alongside a less powerful and slower metagame compared to the start of DLC2 OU, with so many powerful threats re-released into OU.

I hope you enjoyed reading my thoughts, and have a nice day! Happy battling :)
 
Hello Guys!!!

First the Proof-
Reqs.JPG


Secondly Team-
Team.JPG

Basically the only reason the team works is Regen is broken and Ditto is one heck of a mon with regen support. I was actually taken aback on seeing just the sheer versatility of it. It got up hazards, it revenged sweepers, etc. You physically can't lose to Stall with this build and it is good against HO too. Balance is the toughest one if they can get their breakers in repeatedly through pivots but you can definitely play around. Really not too much to say here. One thing I did find interesting is that you can actually very reliably count on being knocked off on Ditto against teams you don't want the Scarf. Knock off is just really too prevalent rn. (You can imposter Regen mons so Ditto also is a pseudo Regen mon but well completely technically the team is 83.333% Incomplete Regeneration).

Ok, now as to Spectrier. There are only two sets that I consider are good and those are Choiced (Scarfed and Specs not Banded) and non-Choiced ones. Now some might say that is literally every set except banded (Sorry guys in the VR forum but Double Kick Spectrier is not good) but hear me out here.

Scarf set is a good scarfer with it's blazing speed outrunning most weather mons, Gear Mag, and all other scarfers besides Dragapult. Despite this I don't think Scarfed Spectrier is the best use of Spectrier. It misses out on the devastating effect of forcing kills or opening up entire games the other sets have.

IMO the Specs set is still an amazing set. It's power is simply breathtaking. It 2hkoes pretty much all special defensive neutral mons in OU with just shadow ball. Even dark types aren't safe. Say for example even max Spdef Mandi, one of the bulkiest dark types in the tier, takes 30-35% from timid hex when burned. If you are able to knock it off. It has a chance to actually get 2hkoed after rocks. Max HP max speed Hydreigon straight up gets 2hkoed by hex if burned after rocks. Zarude, while it can heal off burns, Shadow Ball already does 31to 37% to which is way more than Jungle healing heals. Ttars can get chipped down if they don't have rest. This is not some elaborate setup either. Each team should already have rocks and knock off mons and as Spectrier demands that these dark types switch directly into it and as it doesn't really lose out on any notable move, it can run wisp itself and reliably burn these dark types barely predicting anything. This set let's it focus on what it is best at, i.e. spamming ghost moves. With pivot mons it can continuously get in and fire off attacks due to it's incredible speed even against already blazing fast mons like Torn T and brute force it's way just about everything not named Blissey. It doesn't even need to setup. It really helps that it can just keep firing off attacks from the get go instead of waiting for the perfect setup opportunity that may never come or still get halted even if it comes. This set also punishes people who try to get away with offensive checks like Obstagoon, Krook, Diggersby etc. because they take around 35% from just one Mud Shot and your team is seriously in dangerous of being swept late game by Spectrier if it gets in continuously which it can on balance teams packing pivot mons. Another advantage of this set is that it completely destroys teams that try to run non- dark/normal type mons that are able to still check setup sets.

The true cream of the crop sets, however, are still the setup sets. This is where the problem with it bypassing it's counters starts showing up. Despite it's Offensive movepool being shallow, it's list of status moves is simply massive. My mans got Taunt, Sub, Wisp, Disable, Haze, Calm Mind, Nasty Plot, and Agility. Take your pick of any three and the appropriate EV spread to beat the whatever you want. The general route is going with Sub/Taunt as one move, Nasty Plot/Calm Mind as another and last one is completely a wildcard pick, it can be Sub/Taunt if you picked the other in the first slot, it could be disable, wisp, protect or even another attacking move. For attacks, you mostly go with mono ghost coverage because the dearth of normal types in OU outside of Blissey and some flavor picks but you can easily go with dark pulse or even both in some cases. Want to beat Shadow Ball Blissey? Run Calm Mind Taunt Pulse or Calm mind Sub Pulse. Want to beat Mandi? Run bulky wisp sub. Want to beat Hydriegon? Try Sub Disable Calm Mind Shadow Ball. These setup sets are truly what push it over the edge and it actually even helps the specs set as you just can't throw on a Blissey and call it a day.

All in all it is an incredibly restrictive mon. It's Specs sets forces you to run PARTICULAR Dark/Normal type mons. Particular being the key word here, Not any mon of these typing will do. And it's setup sets allow it to beat any mons it so wishes from this alarmingly meagre list. You absolutely can't afford multiple Spectrier answers in the current meta and if your opponent has opted for the set that beats your counter, it will blow a huge hole in your team if not outright win the game. This "Only one Answer can be afforded per team" also allows people to run the lure sets like Superpower/ Focus Punch Nidoking for Blissey. These sets are particularly successful in this case because the potential upside of getting he lure off is winning the entire game. This is where it separates itself from mons like Urshifu. While it's not as restrictive or capable of brute forcing it's way through checks, it's gets through it's checks by trickery and status. Once it does get through them, then it's blistering speed means that it is much harder to revenge. The only mons that are faster are Pult and Zeraora besides Scarfers. In a lot of games it is the at least the 2nd fastest mon on the field. If it sets up and is able to keep it's sub up against the mons it set up on (which it can easily do if it is speced that way), it can kill the one faster mon from behind the safety of sub and then proceed to sweep the rest of the team. In this regard it is incredibly dangerous.

Though I agree with the sentiment that it not probably not the most broken mon even in the current OU and that Cind and maybe even Mag deserved their suspect test before but that does not take away from the fact that it is also too much for the tier. It is a restrictive mon that is very unhealthy for the meta in it's own right, not only forcing certain mons but also having the ability get past them and having one of the most devastating snowball effect with it's speed and Grim Nrigh. For this reason and the reasons I mentioned above, I will be voting BAN for it.

Well thank you for reading and hope everyone gets their reqs. :)
 
yeah so this thing's incredible offensive stats are supposedly balanced by its limited movepool but literally why do you need anything besides shadow ball when it has one resist and one immunity. you are forced to run a normal or dark on every team, period. fully sp def non-resist mons cannot handle it, even if you ONLY send them out against spec. one sp def drop and your hippo, gastro, cradilly, whatever the f you're resorting to to try to counter this demon (since you're tired of using one of 4 consistent checks every team) still loses to it. hell, i've lost my hydreigon, mandi etc to sp def drops as well. the best answer imo is obstagoon, as it is an actual offensive threat that literally wants to be burned, but even it loses to sub disable which i ran into as recently as yesterday. i actually wanted this thing gone first, even before mosa, as while it may not be as broken, i'd rather lose to a mon because i didn't know its set than lose to a mon even though i know it's going to click one single move, lmao.
 
I want to keep this short, but I also don't want to repeat the points that my fellow forumgoers and players above me have posted:

Spectrier contributes nothing positive to this current OU metagame and just constrains teambuilding to an astronomical degree. On one side of the spectrum, why would you use potentially-excellent Ghosts like Blacephalon, Dragapult, and Gengar over Spectrier? On the other side of the spectrum, why would you want to run potentially-creative teams with unique picks if doing so just leaves your team wide open to getting steamrolled by Spectrier?

The absurd thing about Spectrier is the fact that the mon that everyone knows has at most four viable attacking options can somehow still manage to circumvent its would-be counters:

Obstagoon is a good mon as a whole but simply cannot switch into repeated Mud Shots and is easy to wear down in a meta like this.

Mandibuzz was popular as a Spectrier counter until a Spectrier set was created specifically to turn it into total setup fodder.

Blissey went from being the would-be best Spectrier counter to setup fodder for a mon that has the utility options to shut it down unless it gives up a valuable moveslot for Shadow Ball, exclusively to hit Spectrier. And in return, a new Spectrier set was created specifically to turn this extremely specific Blissey variant into setup bait as well.

Tyranitar was and remains a good Spectrier counter but gets crippled by Wisp and is often tasked with switching into a ton of shit and is thus easy to pressure.

People are considering shit like Snorlax and fucking Lickilicky to deal with Spectrier because they're debatably its only actual counters that don't mind getting statused to death.

When evaluating what does and does not deserve a potential ban, I often find it important to consider what that mon does or does not do for its corresponding metagame. Cinderace and Magearna are both excellent, tier-defining mons, but I personally don't feel like they constrain teambuilding to any significant degree and offer positive and healthy elements in this existing meta. Magearna offers offensive teams valuable defensive utility. Cinderace offers BO/Balance teams with a fast pivot that can be tailor-made to patch up holes in that team. Spectrier offers all the same qualities any of the tier's many Ghosts can offer but amps them up to eleven and in doing so both invalidates many of those Ghosts' potential niches and forces a very specific flavor of defensive counterplay that, for all intents and purposes, wouldn't even be considered in any other situation.

Seeing Shadow Ball Blissey become even remotely close to mainstream gives me the same vibes as did Shed Shell Tapu Lele back in the Gen 7 Arena Trap days: this is not a healthy, natural means by which any tier mainstay adapts to its environment.

TL;DR: I firmly believe that Spectrier offers absolutely no healthy elements to this OU metagame due to how much it negatively impacts the teambuilding process, and because it forces such specific adaptations to even begin to defensively check it I believe it deserves an unconditional BAN.
 
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Katy

Banned deucer.
Hello,

I think that :Spectrier: needs to get BANNED, as it restrict teambuilding to a direction where Dark- and Normal-types are pretty much a necessity or else a team has the potential to lose on the spot, as with Spectriers high special attack and speed it could easily tear holes into an opposing team.

First off:
Spectrier has a tremendously high special attack with 145 and it has the potential to snowball quickly especially with its access to Nasty Plot and Calm Mind, which enables it to let it snowball out of control. Its great speed tier lets it outpace most Pokemon in the OU tier and only a handful are faster than it naturally, unless a team runs Pokemon with a Choice Scarf. The Substitute Calm Mind-Set is easily the best set out of them, as it can burn Mandibuzz to avoid that a Substitute can get broken by its STAB Foul Play so it can easily get itself an opportunity to set-up. Furthermore Spectrier can rather easily fend itself of against another Dark-type which is Hydreigon. Hydreigon has to run a certain amount of HP to not lose on the spot, but the issue is, even then a burned Hydreigon (or any other status like poison or para) will work against it in the long run, as Spectrier still does a huge amount of damage to it, especially when it already had the opportunity to setup beforehand, making even Hydreigons life on the field as a consistent check rather difficult. Blissey has to run Shadow Ball or else it gets stone walled, but in return Spectrier with only having Hex in its Set is getting stonewalled too, which results into a long stalemate situation. Due to the Urshifu-S Ban threats like Obstagoon and Dragapult are getting better in my opinion, and can offensively check Spectrier, but when Spectrier has already a couple of boosts a Infiltrator Shadow Ball won't kill it and after a +1 it has a respectable boost in its special defense. I think the Sub+CM-Set is the best set out of these and can wear down its so called checks pretty easily especially after they have been getting statused and Spectrier has a Calm Mind-Boost up already.

Now onto the other Sets:
Sub+CM isn't the only workable Set of the ghosty horse, it could also run Choice Specs as with its great speed tier, it can afford to run it
and it can force an opponent to either sacking a Pokemon and giving it a Grim Neigh-boost or defensively checking it with Mandibuzz, Hydreigon or Obstagoon and Blissey. The issue with Choice Specs-Sets is it can get worn down relatively easy, but making Spectrier still a dangerous threat on the field at the same time. Mud Shot can threaten other specially defensive Pokemon such as Heatran and can wear down Tyranitar slowly over the course of the game.

Choice Scarf is also pretty threatening as it can outspeed the handful of Pokemon which are naturally faster than it and even a lot of Scarfers are getting picked off after they've been weakened. But I view Choice Scarf as the least dangerous Set out of all the sets I've talked about and will talk about.

Nasty Plot is still a functionable option and with many utility options such as Will-O-Wisp and Disable it can help itself to get an easier time on the field. And Nasty Plot-Sets can easily afford to run Dark Pulse for the aforementioned Blissey and also Obstagoon to wear them down. However in the case of Blissey it can Disable its Soft-Boiled recovery so Spectrier can bypass it in the long term.

To the counterplay and why it isn't as consistent on the field like it looks on the paper:
:mandibuzz: Gets worn down by Status + Hex, cannot break a Substitute if burned with its move in Foul Play, also Roost-recovery can get outdamaged by a couple of Calm Minds. Is even more prone to the Set when Heavy-Duty Boots are knocked off.
:hydreigon: has the same issue as Mandibuzz, status wears it down relatively easy and it takes in addition Stealth Rocks-damage as it runs Leftovers instead of Heavy-Duty Boots like Mandibuzz.
:Blissey: can check Sub+CM-Sets really well as its typing alone lets it roadblock Spectrier entirely. Options such as Taunt / Disable and Dark Pulse can work against Blissey. As Taunt reduces Blissey to only being able to use Seismic Toss.
:obstagoon: great offensive Check but has to watch out for Mud Shot and Dark Pulse as it can get worn down rather easily with entry hazard damage up.
:tyranitar: isn't really splashable outside of certain team structures and therefore can't be used on every team to check Spectrier.
:dragapult: is able to check it offensively, however has to watch out for the relatively rare Choice Scarf-Set, so scouting beforehand is necessary.
:moltres-galar: Has no Roost therefore can't check Spectrier reliably over the course of the game.

Conclusion and Closing Words:
Due to the limited Counterplay towards Spectrier and that Mandibuzz and Hydreigon can get worn down rather easily as well. I would vote BAN on Spectrier as it:
  1. restricts teambuilding
  2. can beat its checks with the right set
  3. having a great special attack alongside a great speed tier, which makes revengekilling it a task on its own
  4. and with a rather spammable STAB it's enabled to easily snowball out of control

have a great day everyone and thanks for reading!
 
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256px-Pokémonsprite_897_StSd.gif
I am going to vote Ban for Spectrier for a few reasons.

• Spectriers switch ins are Blissey and Chansey with Shadow Ball, Hydraigon, Tyranitar and some niche mons like Obstagoon and Zarude (most of the time), which are far too less. And there are no 100% checks. Tyranitar can be burned, Hydraigon Zarude and Obstagoon can be killed by +2 Hyper beam, and if they are burned, they have to tank a +2 Hex.
• Spectrier mostly makes a free Substitute against bulky mons like Blissey or Toxapex, makes some Nasty Plots and can then easily sweep whole teams with a little bit support and it's broken stats with 130 speed and 145 sp attack base.

Spectrier is definetly not as broken as it was in national dex because here are no megas (less mons to defeat) and no z moves that would help Spectrier a lot, but if a pokemon has THAT less switch ins, it has to be banned.

Thanks for reading and glhf with laddering :)
 
Ok so i just made this account and it probably won't do anything votewise but I want to explain why I think that Spectrier should not be banned.

Spectrier @ Choice Scarf/Choice Specs
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex / Mud Shot
- Dark Pulse

Specs Spectrier can punch holes in any team due to its gigantic 145 base special attack stat. Pokemon that don't resist a shadow ball are likely to be 2HKOed, and this puts pressure on the opponent as they cannot use their ghost-resist. One a Blissey or Mandibuzz falls, Spectrier can sweep with a specs set.
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Toxapex: 144-171 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
A scarf set lacks as much power as a specs set, but can avoid being revenge killed by faster ghosts like
or scarf
. Most recently, specs sets have been far more common than scarf sets, but sub-nasty plot sets are becoming more common.
252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 356-422 (112.3 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO



Spectrier @ Leftovers
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 112 HP / 20 Def / 172 SpA / 20 SpD / 184 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot / Calm Mind
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp

This Spectrier set is very good with Mandibuzz, as a slow u-turn can pivot this onto something that will switch out, therefore getting a free sub. This Spectrier is very hard to stop once it gets going, with Infiltator Dragapult one of the few things that can kill spectrier's sub set. However, with +1 SpD it is not ceratain that Spectrier will be OHKOed by Dragapult, so some people opt for calm mind instead.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. +1 112 HP / 20 SpD Spectrier: 258-306 (69.9 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Spectrier has very good status such as Haze and Will-O-Wisp, which is sometimes used as well.

However, Spectrier is too weak to priority like Sucker Punch, and a sub set can be countered by surging strikes or infiltator. It has lots of checks, like Mandibuzz, Dragapult, Scarf Blacephalon, Blissey, Obstagoon (who is becoming more popular), and Rillaboom's Grassy Glide. Its set is too one-dimensional, as Shadow Ball is the only meaningful attack it possesses. So I think that it should not be banned. I haven't qualified to vote but I just wanted to express my opinion.
 
I don’t have a lot to say because a lot was said in previous posts but here are my thoughts.

Spectrier is too much for SS OU.

He pressures a lot the teambuilding by forcing dark / normal types which aren’t even consistent against it for the most part.

He makes most offensive playstyles very difficult to play and they can’t always rely on a consistent revenge killing option because of its speed and the snowball effect that his talent allows.

Spectrier isn’t flawless : its movepool is very bad but it has just enough (Hex/Will-o-wisp/Substitute/Shadow ball/Nasty Plot/Calm Mind/Taunt/Dark Puse/Disable…) to have a huge versatility.

In most tournament games that I saw, he wasn’t doing so much but it was because people were extremely prepped for it.

For all these reasons, I will be voting BAN.

Thanks for reading !
 
you are saying blissey isnt a consistent check because it cant beat SUB/CM/TAUNT/DARK PULSE spectrier? you are stretching so hard constantly to make this pokemon sound broken
Blissey can't do anything back to Spectrier unless she's packing Shadow Ball (which there's no reason for her to run otherwise). Which gets me this:

0 SpA Blissey Shadow Ball vs. 112 HP / 20 SpD Spectrier: 108-128 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah... that's not good. And note that this is assuming Spectrier didn't Calm Mind before, otherwise the sub needs two hits to break (and Spectrier is free to continue setting up in her face, as she can't threaten it out). Also, Taunt and Disable ruin Blissey's day.
 
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I'm not convinced by much of the pro-ban sentiment in here. "Spectrier doesn't do much, but it's too restrictive" is a bunch of bunk that applies to most of the top pokemon in the tier. If you don't run karatan stops, you will get clicked-on. Scarf lando can clean against anything without ground resists. You must run a magearna check. Etc.

I could understand if the case was around its power level, but there are PLENTY of things that can survive a hit and beat it 1v1. You don't have to play in the same "switch wars" style every game.

There are heaps of stops to spectrier and calling them niche is, to me, reflective of an unwillingness to adapt. If spectrier is such a metagame force as this thread would claim, then its checks can certainly not be considered "out" of the meta.

maybe most people don't like playing in this fashion, which is understandable, but banning on the grounds of balance or competitiveness doesn't make sense to me.

:Zarude: Bulk up zarude is god
 
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Spectrier is an incredibly good mon, we all know that. However, is it really that good to be banworthy? IMO it's not better or as centralizing as Magearna, Urfshifu, Dracovish and such. But that's my opinion. It being hard walled by basically any normal type, being super predictable (and no, Shadow Ball isn't a banded 1000BP Fisheous Rend) makes it similar to what Kartana was last gen to be honest; a couple good sets, but all being relatively the same and super predictable.

Is there currently a better revenge killer in the tier? I don't think so. However I do not think it's banworthy. Is has both good offensive and defensive soft-checks. Dragapult can easily kill the sub-set by outspeeding it + infiltrator for example, while Blissey just hard walls any version of it unless running dark pulse which is much, much worse than hex + shadow ball. Also finding out its set isn't that hard, as it really only runs 2 good items types in Leftovers and Choice items.
 
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Jaajgko

I will disband the soccer club
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I'm not sure yet if it's broken or not but one thing I'm sure of is that the "Spectrier is broken because I have to run a ghost resist" arguments should never be the reason for its ban. First because it's not the only ghost type breaker in the tier, Specs Dragapult is also very threatening to teams without ghost resists, obviously its shadow ball is much more easier to tank with non ghost resists, but they can often get 2HKO'd with a SpD drop, and if we ban Spectrier, Aegislash is probably gonna make a comeback at some point, so teams would run ghost resists anw (not saying that Aegi's and Dragapult's Shadow Ball/Hex have the same influence in the teambuilder as Spectrier's, I'm just saying that Spectrier is not the only threat that's worth running a ghost resist against). Second because there are a couple of solid ghost resists that also provide good utility outside of checking it. Mandibuzz provides Defog, a solid check to SD setup sweepers with Foul Play, and is a good knock off user, making it pretty splashable. With it's gitantic bulk it can switch-in even on terrible scenarios like Specs Hex with burn chip, Nasty Plot into Shadow ball SpD Drop, and doesn't mind disable variants. Hydreigon also provides defog support while being one of the only reliable Heatran checks in the tier. It fits better on teams that can pressure Spectrier better because it may get beaten by Spectrier in the long run. Specs or Nasty Plot Hydreigon also works if you're running a very offensive team and don't give it many opportunities. Tyranitar takes nothing from its attacks, negates leftovers recovery (which punishes Sub pretty well), and can set up rocks on it. Just like Hydreigon, it's one of the best Heatran answers, can setup sand for Garchomp or Drill, and also checks a plethora of special attackers thanks to its absurd bulk. With Crunch, it can OHKO or 2HKO Spectrier with no bulk, and 3HKO bulky Spectrier with burn. Tytar dislikes Will-O-Wisp because it negates its only recovery option in leftovers while making it weaker, but there are always Tapu Fini and Heatran as options to absorb Will-O-Wisp. Finally, we have Blissey, which litterally takes 0% from Spectriers stabs and completely walls it unless it runs Dark Pulse. While Blissey can't touch Spectrier behind a Sub without using Shadow Ball, it can PP stall it by using Teleport, bringing in something with boots, and switching back in. It can be paired with Specs Dragapult to avoid being too passive, as it can OHKO Spectrier without a Calm Mind Boost, and if it does have Calm Mind, it doesn't have dark pulse bc CM sets need Sub and w-o-w to be effective, and mono dark pulse sucks. Though I guess the rare taunt sets can be problematic to TP Blissey.
There are enough "answers" to Spectrier to where the teambuilding restriction is not a problem itself. I think the issue is rather that Bulky CM Spectrier can beat most of the aforementioned "answers". While they are reliable answers to nasty plot and Specs sets, Bulky Calm Mind Spectrier can theoratically win almost any match-up besides Blissey (which it can't touch), because breaking its sub can become very challenging once it burned the checks and has a cm boost. Only the Bulky CM set needs very specific techs to be beaten reliably, like Snarl on Hydreigon or Mandibuzz, and Rest on Tyranitar and should be I think the focus of this discussion. As to wether this set puts it over the edge, I'm not sure yet, I'll build and ladder with it and see for myself.
 
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